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Kristin Hayes, R.N.

Too Soon to Get a Flu Shot?

By August 15, 2011

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It might seem strange, given the weather, but believe it or not many states in the U.S. are already making the 2011-2012 seasonal flu shot available. The 2009 H1N1 pandemic taught us that while the flu season traditionally starts in October influenza is an unpredictable illness and can occur in the spring and summer months. If you are one of the thousands of Americans who have become disenchanted with the flu shot, or vaccines in general, here are some facts from the CDC that will hopefully encourage you to get the vaccine:

  • The flu shot is incapable of causing the flu, although the nasal mist can rarely cause symptoms of the flu. If you developed flu-like symptoms after receiving the shot you have come into contact with a virus that the vaccine does not cover. A low grade fever is a normal immune reaction to the vaccine and does not mean that you have the flu but that your immune system is heightened and ready to develop antibodies against the flu viruses covered by the vaccine.
  • While it is possible to have allergic reactions or other complications from vaccines they are extremely rare. The CDC tracks adverse reactions to all vaccines so if you have a negative reaction to the seasonal flu shot you should report it to the CDC via the phone number listed on their website.
  • The CDC estimates that between 1976 and 2006 up to 49,000 people died from flu complications.
  • Complications of the flu include pneumonia, ear infections, sinus infections, dehydration and worsening of diseases such as diabetes and congestive heart failure.
  • The mercury based preservative thimerosal has never been proven to cause autism despite numerous studies.
  • Thimerosal was removed from all new vaccines in 2001. While it is still contained in multi-dose vials of the seasonal flu vaccine it is not contained in single-dose vials. Therefore, if you are concerned about thimerosal you can call to find a doctor or pharmacist who is using the single-dose vials and rest assured that you are not getting thimerosal along with your vaccine.
  • Low vaccination rates correlate with a more severe flu season.
  • The 2009 pandemic again proved the unpredictability of this disease when it killed several young healthy adults. The CDC now recommends that everyone over the age of 6 months who has not previously had a serious reaction to the flu vaccine or an allergy to chicken eggs and who is not currently suffering from the flu or a cold receive the seasonal flu shot.
  • While there are two anti-viral medications on the market to treat the flu, the flu virus is already developing resistance to these medications.

For tons more information visit the CDC's website and talk to your doctor.


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Comments
August 15, 2011 at 8:35 pm
(1) Anne McElroy Dachel says:

Hayes told us that injecting mercury into people is safe. Mercury is the second deadliest element on earth and a known neurotoxin. Thimerosal was invented in 1930 by Eli Lilly. They tested it on 22 patients dying of meningitis. All of them were dead by the end of the “study” but thimerosal was declared safe. The FDA has never tested or approved thimerosal, but it’s allowed in vaccines.

Anne Dachel, Media editor: Age of Autism

August 15, 2011 at 8:36 pm
(2) Anne McElroy Dachel says:

Ninety percent of the vaccine available contains mercury. Good luck to people who look for a mercury-free shot. Anyone three years and older gets 25 mcg. of mercury in their vaccines. According to the EPA, this much mercury is meant for someone weighing 550 pounds. Younger children get 12.5 mcg. of mercury that can be safely processed by someone weighing 275 pounds. Doctors give this vaccine to pregnant women at all stages of pregnancy and the massive mercury assault easily passes the placental barrier and enters the developing fetus.

The package insert that comes with the flu vaccine states that it’s never been tested on pregnant women and that it’s not known whether vaccine can cause fetal harm

http://drtenpenny.com/Documents/EducateYourself_Flyer_ProIt is also not known whether
Fluzone vaccine can cause fetal harmof_16.pdf

Anne Dachel, Media editor: Age of Autism

August 15, 2011 at 8:48 pm
(3) Anne McElroy Dachel says:

See package insert on pregnant women and the flu shot:

http://drtenpenny.com/Documents/EducateYourself_Flyer_Proof_16.pdf

August 15, 2011 at 9:34 pm
(4) Maurine meleck says:

The 2009 flu season actully taught us that all that hype was just that–a lot of hype. Why would anyone listen to the CDC on this? They have their own agenda that does not include the safety of vaccines. For years they stated that every year the flu kills 36,000 people in the US. Now it’s 49,000 in a thirty year period. makes no sense and is so unreliable. Thimerosal was not taken out of all vaccines-In 2004 it went back into the flu vaccines- in copious amounts.
For the huge majority of people –the flu is nothing but a few days at home in bed–watching tv and eating toast and drinking gingerale. Why make such a big deal of this?
Maurine Meleck -SC

August 15, 2011 at 10:04 pm
(5) ICU_RN says:

I can’t believe how naive and easily deceived you people can be. Come on… drtenpenny.com are you kidding me. Show me a legitmate source. That website is run by NMA Media-Press, LLC. Which guess what is also behind “Age of Autism”. First, the vaccine – autism connection has been readily discredited. But once the media gets hold of something it takes a while to die down in the uneducated.

Second, the ENT guide never made any personal claims, she was summarizing claims of the CDC. Be careful on your attacks on a person. Read the article before you fire off accusations on the blogger.

Third, I wouldn’t tell people to buck up unless you have seen the tragedies of the flu. The flu is not a simple cold and while many people get better without many complications, people die from this. I’ve seen health young adults die from this. So saying you should buck up isn’t fair to those that have died.

I don’t claim that any vaccine or medication is perfect. Everything has a side-effect, but the fact is vaccines save more people from fatal illness than they harm. And what is being used to make claims that they are harming aren’t very scientifically sound. I can make a claim and get people to believe me because I’m charismatic, or famous, or look good in front of the camera, but I need to actually prove it to discredit the good that has been shown to come from vaccines. No one has done this yet.

August 15, 2011 at 11:14 pm
(6) MinorityView says:

ICU_RN, doesn’t it puzzle you a bit that the CDC was saying for many years that 36,000 people a year died of the flu and now they’ve done this huge switch and it is a completely different figure (49,000 over 30 years)?

This statement from the article interests me: “Low vaccination rates correlate with a more severe flu season.”

I’d like to see the studies supporting this statement. I remember the year that the flu vaccine from the plants in England was blocked due to contamination and there was a definite shortage. It didn’t seem as though the flu season was more severe that year.

August 16, 2011 at 2:39 pm
(7) ent says:

Minority View:
I did find it confusing that the CDC changed their estimate on flu deaths. So confusing that I may have made it sound like the 3,000-49,000 estimate was over a 30 yr. period when in fact the CDC says that the average flu deaths per FLU SEASON (per year) range from 3,000-49,000. I know it sounds crazy but in a Reuters article Dr. David Shay, a medical officer in the CDC’s National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases says that the 36,000 estimate came about in the 1990′s (and was accurate for those years) when the H3N2 flu virus (a particularly deadly flu virus) was circulating. However, there have been other years when less deadly flu viruses have been circulating and subsequently flu deaths were as low as 3,000 during those years. He goes on to say that the CDC now realizes that it is impossible to make a statement such as “the flu causes 36,000 deaths per year” with any degree of accuracy because the number of deaths the flu causes per year is so variable.

August 16, 2011 at 3:41 pm
(8) ent says:

Anne,
“Hayes told us that injecting mercury into people is safe.”

I would never make such a statement. We know that mercury is toxic to humans.

What I did say is that thimerosal has never been proven to cause autism. I stand by this. No credible (large, double blind, peer reviewed) study has ever proven a link.

It may interest you to know that I AM THE MOTHER OF AN AUTISTIC CHILD. My daughter has never received a vaccine with thimerosal in it so that’s not what caused her autism. I think, (I don’t know that this is fact), in RARE cases, vaccines can cause an over reaction of the immune system, and like an autoimmune disorder, cause the immune system to attack the neurological system resulting in autism or similar symptoms.

Despite studies showing that the small amount of mercury in thimerosal is not enough to harm humans, the CDC pulled it out of all NEW vaccines in 2001 to ease the public’s mind given the controversy over autism and vaccinations. The ONE vaccine they were unable to remove it from was the multi-dose flu shot. This is because it is a preservative which keeps germs from entering the bottle after it’s been opened. Not a problem for single dose vials since once the bottle is opened ALL of the medication is used immediately.

Some people have been harmed by vaccines and there are risks. However, I believe that the good that vaccines have done far outweighs this. We could all “buck up”, that’s what they did before vaccines were invented. Of course, the life expectancy at that time was 40, millions were crippled by polio and most children died in infancy.

With the decline of vaccination rates in the U.S. we have a comeback of the measles and also whooping cough. The CA whooping cough epidemic recently killed a number of infants and children. If people continue to decline vaccinations I fear that we will find out the hard way why we invented them in the first place.

August 16, 2011 at 8:23 pm
(9) Tim Kasemodel says:

It is so frustrating to see that people like Kristin Hayes are still so gullible to believe everything about vaccines without fact checking. Flu shots are not the only vaccines that are manufactured and administered with mercury as you can find out from the FDA website here:

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228#t3

Tripedia is an infant vaccine that still contains 600 parts per billion mercury; 200 ppb is liquid hazardous waste – 0.2 ppb shuts down the enzyme that allows the body to rid itself of mercury.

The meningococcal vaccine from Sanofi Pasteur (Menomune) given to children contains 50,000 ppb. The cold hard truth is that a total of 15 vaccines administered today still contain mercury, 9 of which are NOT flu shots – and yes, ARE given to children.

We want people to know the truth about vaccines, yet we are the ones who are attacked and called frauds.

Educated yourselves, fact check the authorities, and ignore those who attack us without backing up what they say.

August 16, 2011 at 8:58 pm
(10) Tim Kasemodel says:

ICU RN says “Come on drtenpenny.com are you kidding me. Show me a legitmate source.”

How about Novartis’ own website?

http://www.novartisvaccines.com/downloads/diseases-products/Fluvirin_PI_2009_2010.pdf

USE IN SPECIFIC POPULATIONS
Safety and effectiveness of FLUVIRIN

have not been established in pregnant
women, nursing mothers or children less than 4 years of age. (8.1, 8.3, 8.4)
Antibody responses were lower in the geriatric population than in younger subjects.

Again, facts are easy to find. As for your comment “Be careful on your attacks on a person. Read the article before you fire off accusations….”, I simply point to your later comment “I can make a claim and get people to believe me because Im charismatic, or famous, or look good in front of the camera,…”

We all know who you are talking about and and yes, you are attacking Ms. McCarthy’s character. But hey, we are used to hypocritical comments from those who want us to go away. Jenny backs up her claims with FACTS, just as I have. The CDC has nothing to but tired claims that clearly do not stand up. If they did, we would not still be talking about this after all these years.

Lastly, any claims of lower vaccination rates are due to educated parents – Funny thing, we are accused of scaring parents away from vaccines and you use anecdotes of death ( …while many people get better without many complications, people die from this. Ive seen health young adults die from this…) to instill fear or guilt to get parents not to question the medical choices they have for their children.

I feel that the day we lose that freedom to make our own medical choices is the day we lose America.

August 16, 2011 at 9:15 pm
(11) Robert says:

Unless someone can show me a vaccine that produces no adverse effects or deaths, you can’t tell me that they are safe. Directed at ICU_RN. You can say vaccines do more good than harm and you are slapping the face of those who have lost loved ones or have watched loved ones suffer from vaccine injuries, which there are. 1 death or 1 screwed up child is too many and proves a poor safety record. And they do not work as well as you want us to think. I used to get my yearly flu shot. Always got sick. Quit getting my flu shot and quit getting sick. It cost me more money when getting it than it did when I did not. Forcing vaccines is a poor practice. They have exemptions for a reason and people like you and the media need to quit trying to convince people to get vaccines.

August 16, 2011 at 9:46 pm
(12) Taximom5 says:

Ms. Hayes, I would not be so quick to assume that your child never received a thimerosal-preserved vaccine.

In 1998, my newborn son was vaccinated in the hospital, without my knowledge, and against my specific written instructions. The nurses offered to take him back to the nursery while I took a shower, about 4 hours after he was born. They vaccinated him at that time, and then told me, oops, they didn’t realize he wasn’t supposed to be vaccinated, and that I HAD to sign the consent form because they’d already done it.

In 2004, my daughter nearly received a thimerosal-preserved vaccine. The pediatrician’s nurse swore that all their vaccines had been thimerosal-free since 2001, but admitted that the vaccine they were about to give my daughter came from a multi-use vial. I insisted that she get the package insert, and showed her where 25.5 micrograms of mercury was listed in the ingredients.

Also, you seem to define a credible study as “large, double-blind, and peer-reviewed.” Perhaps you should also consider that a credible study should have NO conflict of interest; in other words, it should not be funded by, directed by, or interpreted by the company that makes the vaccine being studied. A vaccine studied for safety should be compared with a true placebo, not another vaccine containing adjuvants, preservatives, antigens, and other ingredients that are known to have measurable effects on the immune system.

Please take a close look at the “studies” that purport to show no link between thimerosal and developmental/brain disorders. They are deeply flawed, in spite of being “peer-reviewed.” Apparently, the peers doing the reviewing didn’t look too closely.

August 16, 2011 at 10:02 pm
(13) Taximom5 says:

There are no studies showing that the amount of mercury in thimerosal does not cause harm to humans. There are only studies showing that some humans do not appear to be harmed by this amount. That is not the same thing at all.

It’s not that hard to find several thousand heavy smokers who do not have cancer. That doesn’t mean that that proves that cigarettes do not cause harm to humans.

Also, the CDC never “pulled thimerosal out of all new vaccines,” not in 2001, not ever. What they did was request–not mandate, REQUEST–that vaccine manufacturers stop making thimerosal-preserved PEDIATRIC vaccines.

The vaccine manufacturers did in fact begin to make new formulations of PEDIATRIC vaccines in unpreserved, single-use syringes.

They also continued to distribute and sell the old, thimerosal-preserved PEDIATRIC in the US, to any pediatrician who wanted to purchase the cheaper, multi-use vials, for as long as the shelf life was good. Since there is no mandate, this was legal.

In addition, they still continue to make thimerosal-preserved pediatric vaccines, which are sold and distributed in third-world countries (which now have increasing rates of autism).

And the adult shots still come in multi-use vials–preserved with thimerosal.

August 17, 2011 at 7:23 am
(14) ICU_RN says:

Robert,
Slapping the face of 1 parent who has lost a loved one to vaccine exposure? How about the 3,000 to 49,000 who died from the flu virus. You can claim that I try to cause fear in people by saying what I’ve seen, but you haven’t sat at the bedside of an otherwise healthy person, not leaving their side for 12 hours, 3 days straight not leaving the room to even eat, in protective equipment, while their hooked up to continuous dialysis because their kidneys have shut down, managing a ventilator, because their lungs can’t oxygenate their blood without support, while supporting their blood pressure with medications and turning them constantly to help prevent pressure sores. Don’t tell me that I try to cause fear unjustly. You haven’t been in my shoes and seen what I’ve seen and just because you read a few articles and consider yourself educated doesn’t mean that you are right.

August 17, 2011 at 8:34 am
(15) ICU_RN says:

I agree that research needs to be taken out of the hands of the pharmaceutical companies, however this sometimes is difficult because there are many areas that need research and only so many foundations providing money. Pharmaceutical companies do have deep pockets, and there are regulatory agencies that try to manage this. However you will not find a study that will look at considering use of a placebo in place of another type of vaccine. The reason for this is because IRBs across the country have to consider whether or not that type of placebo-controlled study would have equipoise. And it will not have equipoise because of the harm that can come from not being vaccinated. Several disease that were almost wiped out have had a resurgence due to the populations that are now promoting to not be vaccinated and causing deaths or permanent disabilities in children that acquire diseases that could have been prevented.

August 17, 2011 at 4:44 pm
(16) thinkingmom says:

ICU_RN has made a lot of excellent points. Vaccinations, including flu, are one of modern science’s greatest successes. If you think differently, you are not looking at the FACTS.

Be smart, vaccinate your children and protect your families. All the naysayers are misinformed at best and paranoid harm-doers at worst. Get the facts from well-constructed, peer-reviewed, science-based studies. That’s where (most of) our doctors get their information. Not from some scare-tactic comments of a charlatan trying to sell a book or a product.

August 17, 2011 at 4:59 pm
(17) Taximom5 says:

Saying that vaccinations (ESPECIALLY FLU) are one of modern sciences greatest successes is rather like saying that tobacco is one of science’s greatest successes.

The tobacco industry did everything they could to promote the idea that cigarettes combatted stress, and that were so healthy that 4 out of 5 doctors smoked X brand of cigarettes, etc. The Marlboro man was the picture of a healthy outdoorsman. Their own studies “showed” that cigarettes were not harmful, and were (supposedly) beneficial.

And we see exactly the same thing with the vaccine industry.

Read the Cochrane Collaborative’s research on the flu shot. It is, according to their research, no more effective than a placebo. In addition, the PACKAGE INSERT admits that safety and efficacy have not been established in the elderly and in pediatric populations (hello, those are the two main targeted groups!).

ICU_RN, I’m sure you are aware that “otherwise healthy” people do not generally succumb to the flu, and do not generally have severe enough cases to need hospitalization. That would be people who have underlying health problems, particularly autoimmune disorders–and we already know that vaccines can trigger and even directly CAUSE autoimmune problems (there are plenty of studies on PubMed showing this, but they are not exactly marketed by the vaccine industry).

So then it becomes a game of Russian Roulette. Do we vaccinate people with autoimmune problems because they are more likely to have complications from the flu? Or do we avoid vaccinating people with autoimmune problems because they are more likely to have complications and/or severe adverse reactions from the vaccine itself?

Since people with autoimmune disorders are not allowed in vaccine safety studies, we really don’t know.

And since only 1-10% of severe adverse reactions are even reported, there is not nearly enough knowledge/understanding of which patients are likely to have these reactions, and why.

August 17, 2011 at 6:32 pm
(18) Tim Kasemodel says:

“…but you havent sat at the bedside of an otherwise healthy person, not leaving their side for 12 hours, 3 days straight…”

ICU_RN, you have not sat at the bedside of an otherwise healthy infant, for 13 years, 347 days, 7 hours, 37 minutes while you watch his immune system collapse, develop unexplained life threatening infections, see him screaming pain while he tries to pee but cant, cleaning up watery mucous diarrhea that he drags all over the house because he cant stop it, or getting hit kicked, scratched and bit while your son destroys your house and all your belongings because he cant poop and his inflamed bowels hurt like the worst PMS cramps you could ever imagine, all the while he cant tell you where it hurts or how to help him.

Sound harsh? I have not even scratched the surface of what it is like to live with a vaccine injured child – so pardon my lack of empathy for an RN who gets to go home after having to care for a patient that may die, after all you chose nursing. But its hard to feel for you when the medical profession has my son to suffer needlessly simply because his symptoms match exactly what Dr. Andrew Wakefield alerted the world to LONG AGO.

Imagine what treatments could have been developed if research into bowel disease in children with autism was encouraged and pediatricians were not threatened with dismissal for even recognizing the disease, which is what happens in Minnesota.

August 17, 2011 at 9:23 pm
(19) WhiteandNerdy says:

Mr. Kasemodel and Ms Dachel,

It is so frustrating that after more than a decade of toxicologists explaining that your comments about thimerosal/mercury are wrong, they are still being posted.

For example the claim that 12.5mg requires a weight of 275 pounds to be safe is an outright fabrication that has been continually corrected since the late 1990s.

This nonsense has been ruled many times by US Civil courts as junk science–not even admissible in courts. And those that advocate these positions have been characterized as lying to make money.

But then you don’ refer us to any actual toxicologists. Instead you offer us the uniformed opinions of not-a-scientist Tenpenny–who has also had her testimony on vaccines ruled to be so poor that it is inadmissible in court.

But then perhaps you have never read all these court decisions since some sites are so dishonest as to claim these court rulings don’t exist.

W&N

August 17, 2011 at 9:49 pm
(20) WhiteandNerdy says:

Taximom5,

We know that you have misstated the ethics of running trials, the proper use of controls, the safety of thimerosal in vaccines, the Cochrane Collaborative conclusions, the effects on flu on healthy people, the pubmed studies on autoimmunity, the fact that there are vaccine safety studies that include people with autoimmune diseases, and the claim that only 1-10% of reactions are reported is false.

What we don’t know is why people choose to ignore the fact the vaccine critics get pretty much everything wrong.

W&N

August 17, 2011 at 11:09 pm
(21) Tim Kasemodel says:

White and Nerdy”, please give your source for “… more than a decade of toxicologists explaining that your comments about thimerosal/mercury are wrong,….”

No toxicologist has EVER explained that our comments about thimerosal/mercury are wrong that I know of – please feel free top give me a “reputable source” that our comments are false.

You state: “For example the claim that 12.5mg requires a weight of 275 pounds to be safe is an outright fabrication that has been continually corrected since the late 1990s.”

go to http://www.epa.gov/hg/exposure.htm

“U.S. EPA’s 2001 Reference Dose (RfD) for methylmercury was calculated to protect the developing nervous system. Currently, U.S. EPA uses a RfD of 0.1 g/kg body weight/day as an exposure without recognized adverse effects. A description of EPAs Reference Dose for methylmercury may be found at a “reputable source”. (this is how its done)

http://www.epa.gov/iris/subst/0073.htm.

Lets see…

0.1 g/kg body weight/day (ug means microgram)

12.5 mg divided by 0.1ug/kg equals 125 kg times2.2 lbs/kg equals 275 lbs.

Welcome to the 21st century where some of us have brains.

My son was injected with 62.5 mcg of ethyl mercury when he weighed less than 9 kg when, according to a study only looking at methyl mercury from fish, means he could “safely eat” mercury equal to .01 times 9kg or less than 1 microgram of mercury, presumably by eating tuna – at 6 months old.

As for court decisions, try reading the dissenting arguments sometime, just to be “fair”. Start with this “reputable source” (see, its easy!)

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/09-152.pdf

August 17, 2011 at 11:14 pm
(22) t says:

w&n,

Again, if you claim that taximom (or any of us) is misstating facts, please feel free to point us to reputable links that back up what you say. It should be so easy. Just go to the site you got your info from and cut a paste it into the comments like I do.

waiting………

August 17, 2011 at 11:54 pm
(23) ICU_RN says:

Obviously arguing with you is frivolous. I keep getting quotes from drtenpenny.com and now Dr? Andrew Wakefield who was heavily discredited, going back to another comment regarding doing good research throwing his name out now is laughable. He had financial interest in his findings and is now the laughing stock of the medical community. There isn’t too much worse than you can do to ruin your career than to contribute to fraudulent research. You want to support your cause then get people that are legitimate well respected physicians that are willing to utilize the scientific method to support this. It is documented that in theory these claims could possibly occur. However despite these theories can not be supported. You want sources. Try PubMed or Uptodate and you’ll find plenty of support that they could be plausible in theory but have not panned out in legitimate research. I refuse to continue arguing with someone that hides behind poor resources. And you know nothing about my home life. Difference is I don’t go after the people that choose the medical profession as a career to help people. While you fight against the people that one day most likely will save your life unless you’re too stubborn thinking that drtenpenny.com and Dr. Wakefield are going to save you.

August 18, 2011 at 10:42 am
(24) mark says:

You need a flu shot like you need a hole in your head. Flu shots are bogus and unnecessary.

August 18, 2011 at 10:48 am
(25) whiteandnerdy says:

T,

OK, one more time….

My first comment was about the 550 pounds claim:
1. FDA, not EPA regulates medicines–the EPA standard is the wrong one to use
2. The calculation is based on the RfD.
2(a). RfD is for chronic exposure to methyl mercury. It is calculated based on being exposed every single day for your entire life starting in utero.
2(b). There is no RfD for ethyl mercury–which is what is found in thimerosal
2(c). Vaccination is an acute exposure. Using RfD for an acute exposure gives a completely meaningless result. This is the most important error.
2(d). These errors have been pointed out countless times since the late 1990s. AoA crew simple will not tell the truth.
3. As any middle school student should be able to tell you, it is impossible to have a mercury-free product of any kind.

Summary: they have done a meaningless calculation, for the wrong molecule, using the wrong standard incorrectly, despite more than a decade of the errors being corrected.

Here is a link from more than 10 years ago where the calculations are done correctly:
http://www.iom.edu/~/media/Files/Activity%20Files/PublicHealth/ImmunizationSafety/LBall.pdf

See ~pages 24-25.

If you keep fact checking this is par for the course with the AoA crew.

Personal opinion: it is pointless to point out errors that they already know about. All one can do is keep pointing out that they are still wrong.

W&N

August 18, 2011 at 10:55 am
(26) whiteandnerdy says:

Ms Hayes,

What you need to understand is that AoA is a business that makes money scaring parents about vaccines.

They substitute censorship and personal attacks for reason, knowledge or facts.

It is impossible to reason with some that simply doesn’t care about the truth.

What one can do is to fact-check their claims and show how they are not truthful.

Please be aware that if history is any guide, if you do compare their claims with the facts you are likely to subject to the most profound personal attacks. Possibly including your family and maybe including advocating violence against you.

Bizarrely, AoA is unable to understand why their arguments are not just rejected, but the site is held in contempt.

Anyway, I am off on vacation now. Have fun.

W&N

August 21, 2011 at 9:34 pm
(27) Taximom5 says:

Interesting that whiteandnerdy makes accusations about AoA trying to make money by scaring parents about vaccinations.

How on earth does that make money for anyone?

If I had stumbled onto the AoA website BEFORE my own children had severe reactions to vaccines, I might have known enough to delay those vaccines, and turn some of them down. I might have spared my children from having those severe reactions.

How on earth would that have made money for AoA?

August 21, 2011 at 9:47 pm
(28) Taximom5 says:

On the other hand, let’s look at the pharmaceutical industry, which makes billions by selling vaccines. Not just the vaccines for the truly dangerous diseases like polio, but vaccines for flu, for chicken pox, for shingles (many cases of which are due to the use of chicken pox vaccine), for genital warts (Gardasil), for Hepatitis B for newborns (who are rarely at risk for Hepatitis B), for rotavirus (easily avoidable if mom is breastfeeding).

Children are now required to have upwards of 36 vaccines by the time they are 2 years old.

It’s the pharmaceutical industry that makes money through fear: “There is a pandemic coming, get your (untested for safety and efficacy) vaccine NOW!” “Children must have the (apparently less-than-effective) pertussis vaccine in order to prevent the spread of pertussis(in spite of the fact that it does not prevent SPREAD of the pertussis virus, it only prevents SYMPTOMS)!” “Children must have flu shots!” (in spite of the fact that the flu shot is not effective in pediatric populations, and it says so in the package insert) “Children must have TWO MMR shots!” (in spite of the fact that according to what Merck used to post on their website, 95% of those inoculated with one MMR had lifetime immunity, and there were no studies on whether or not the remaining 5% ever developed immunity after the second shot.) “Pregnant women should get their flu shots!” (in spite of the fact that the package insert specifically does NOT recommend the flu shot for pregnant women, citing a lack of adequate studies, and rating the shot as category C, which usually means “avoid while pregnant.” And in spite of the fact that thimerosal crosses the placenta.)

August 22, 2011 at 1:07 pm
(29) whiteandnerdy says:

Taximom,

1 of 2

Interesting in deed.

The AoA business model–selling alternative meds, books, advertising–is right on their home page. So their financial gain from scaring parents is a fact that you must be aware of.
You just seem to be ignoring this fact.

On the other hand, you didn’t comment on anything of substance. I listed 8 errors in your comments and you are silent about them.

No surprise, since avoiding the anti-vaccs misinformation does require a commitment not to fact-check.

W&N

August 22, 2011 at 1:13 pm
(30) whiteandnerdy says:

Taximom,

2 of 2

Speaking of missinformation…

There are only 11 vaccines that US kids receive–not 36.

Yes, health insurance companies/organizations/national health care systems pay billions for vaccines because they are safe and effective. The anti-vaccs understate the risks of the diseases and fabricate adverse reactions. Which is exactly why the anti-vacc arguments are ignored.

Since you hangout in sites that can’t even correctly count the number of vaccines given, it is no surprise that you understand pandemic vaccines etc, etc…nothing you wrote stands up to scrutiny if you care enough to look.

W&N

August 22, 2011 at 5:42 pm
(31) Taximom5 says:

Whiteandnerdy:

Since I have never purchased anything at AoA, I don’t see how letting people know how dangerous vaccines are is a moneymaker.

It seems like you are trying to fudge the truth about the number of vaccines given to children today. You seem to think that 3 separate doses of the Hepatitis B vaccine (which is completely unnecessary for the majority of day-old infants) count as one vaccine.

A child who has received three doses of any vaccine has been vaccinated 3 separate times, not once, and has received 3 vaccines, not one. The fact that those vaccines were for the same disease does not mean that they received one single vaccine.

If a child is sensitive to some component of that vaccine, and has received it on 3 separate times, it certainly fudges the truth to say, “Oh, but it was only one vaccine.” THAT CHILD RECEIVED THREE SEPARATE DOSES OF SOMETHING THAT HARMED HIM, NOT ONE SINGLE DOSE.

It’s absolutely chilling, how you attempt to whitewash the truth, when some of us have been permanently harmed by these vaccines.

August 22, 2011 at 7:59 pm
(32) whiteandnerdy says:

Taximom,

You didn’t follow the arguments.

(1) Even if AoA hasn’t made any money off of you, it doesn’t change the fact that they do make money by scaring parents about vaccines.

(2) I have already posted above how completely and utter false the claim that one would have to weigh 275 pounds for the thimerosal dose to be safe. By continuing to spread misinformation, AoA isn’t educated parents, it is deceiving them.

(3) Your rant about “fudging” simply demonstrates that you don’t even know the definition of the word vaccine. This is what happens when you hang out at intellectual and moral cesspools like AoA–your brain gets filled with BS.

(4) Hep B–a terrible, often lethal disease when contracted as a young child. Before the Hep B vaccine ~16,000 US kids (ages 0-9 years) were infected with Hep B each year–this doesn’t count the cases of perinatal infections. Truth is that all US kids were at risk for dying from Hep B.

I agree, it is absolutely chilling that the anti-vaccs can risk children’s lives by lying about the risks of disease or by fabricating adverse reactions and you simple refuse to look at the facts.

But you are doing an excellent job at demonstrating exactly why the anti-vacc arguments are ignored and they are marginalized to posting on the Net.

W&N

August 22, 2011 at 8:34 pm
(33) Taximom5 says:

W & N:

Where did I ever say that one would have to weigh 275 pounds–OR ANY SPECIFIC WEIGHT–for a thimerosal dose to be safe? (I never did.)

And where did I say ANYTHING about “anti-vaccs risking children’s lives?” (I never did–so you clearly don’t agree with me, despite your dishonest words.)

Children are not at risk for contracting Hep B unless they share needles, drug paraphernalia, or have sexual contact or otherwise absorb body fluids from someone infected with Hep B, as that is how it is transmitted.

If all you can do is misquote me, you are clearly challenged in the truth department.

But that is already evident in all your posts.

As someone who was injured by vaccines, and as someone whose children were all injured by vaccines, I have nothing to gain by warning people that they, too, might be injured, just as we were. AoA can sell whatever they want on their site–one doesn’t have to buy anything to read about the experiences and subsequent research of others who were injured.

The only people who would want to censor this kind of information–and launch personal attacks on those who share it–are those who stand to lose money by people finding out that vaccines are not as safe as they are touted to be.

August 22, 2011 at 9:08 pm
(34) whiteandnerdy says:

Come on Taximom5,

The comments are all above to refresh your memory if you are getting confused…

(1) “Anne Dachel, Media editor: Age of Autism” posted the completely false comments about needing to 275 pounds.

You remember the point was about AoA making money by deceiving parents–not educating them. This was the example given.

(2) Hep B: your statement ” Children are not at risk for contracting Hep B unless they share needles, drug paraphernalia, or have sexual contact or otherwise absorb body fluids from someone infected with Hep B, as that is how it is transmitted.” Is untrue.

We know this is false because we have decades of data testing US kids and finding them infected with Hep B without any of the exposures you listed.

You ignored the data I posted (~16,000 US kids infected per year plus perinatal infections) I suppose because you know that if you look at the facts you will see how the anti-vaccs have outright lied for decades about the risks of Hep B–this is endangering kids lives.

(3) You assert that you and “all your children” were injured by vaccines.

Since you have demonstrated an understanding of vaccines that is less than zero (you don’t understand them and you are filled with falsehoods) and since your odds of winning Powerball is much, much greater than having multiple, serious adverse reactions to yourself and your children, reasonable people don’t find your assertion credible.

Your continuing ignoring of obvious misinformation from the anti-vaccs doesn’t do anything to help your credibility.

W&N

August 22, 2011 at 11:38 pm
(35) Taximom5 says:

I’m honestly shocked that about.com allows whiteandnerdy to post such nasty, argumentative (but totally unsubstantiated) personal attacks, some of which border on slander/libel (especially those regarding Age of Autism).

Moderators? Are there any? Or is whiteandnerdy a moderator here? (That would explain quite a bit.)

W & N:
If you have an argument against anything Anne Dachel has written, I suggest you take it up with her. She already provided info from the FDA, which you immediately discarded because it didn’t suit your purpose, ad then turned your argument towards me, even though I wasn’t discussing the amount of mercury deemed safe. I was discussing my documented and reported reaction to it, remember?

My children’s reactions were eventually documented and reported by their pediatrician, as well as a couple of other specialists (all mainstream MD’s–no alternative doctors were needed, as their reactions are now considered clear).

Since I have never sought financial compensation, I have nothing to gain from telling people about our experience, nor am I under a gag order (unlike many of the families who WERE compensated for vaccine-induced autism, like the Polings).

I ignored your data on hep B because it was a lie; according to cdc.gov, in 2007, 4519 acute infections were reported. They can only estimate that infections may be higher because some go unreported, and some are completely asymptomatic. Therefore, you cannot say with any authority at all that 16,000 kids in the US are infected with Hep B, plus perinatal infections–that’s just ridiculous!

According to http://www.hepb.org , “Hepatitis B is transmitted through blood and infected bodily fluids. HEPATITIS B IS NOT TRANSMITTED CASUALLY.”

I would request that the moderators (if there are any here) strike your comments as unscientific fear-mongering, not to mention glaringly inaccurate.

August 23, 2011 at 1:51 am
(36) ICU_RN says:

All I will comment about slander is that the Age of Autism Media-Editor that first commented began the slanderous comments directed to the guide who was only summarizing the CDC. If you go around About.com you will see countless cases of slander originated by the AoA particularly on the autism forums. Further accusations against about.com, their guides etc… because people don’t feel that AoA is an ethical organization in their methods isn’t likely to warrant much thought. W&N has backed up his opinions which was asked of him by other blog responders. If the guide was going to start censoring blog posts, I would say half the AoA supporters should be striked out particularly the ones where she is attacked.

August 23, 2011 at 8:19 am
(37) whiteandnerdy says:

Thanks Taximom for demonstrating the truth,

This has nothing to do with reason–just the psychology of denial.

(1) You continue to use words (vaccine, libel, slander) when you clearly don’t understand what they mean–so of course you come to false conclusions.

(2) Fact checking reduces you making absurd comments about me (libel/slander etc). Writing the truth can’t be libelous–it really helps if you have some understanding of what you are posting about.

(3) Above I have already documented more than a decade of Ms Dachel’s nonsense about thimerosal/weight being corrected. So your claim about being unsubstantiated is clearly false. I suppose you choose not to look because you know that the truth doesn’t support your POV.

(4) The thimerosal/weight BS is just one example of the AoA misinformation. A particularly egregious examples is Ms Dachel repeated posting all around the Net that the Supreme Court ruled that vaccine manufactures can’t be sued.

This is false and this error has been pointed out the Ms Dachel many, many times. The truth is that the court exactly pointed out that all US families can sue vaccine manufacturers and more to the point a number of cases have been tried in US civil courts claiming that vaccines/thimerosal causes autism. All the vaccines cause autism arguments–I.e. basically everything that AoA argues–have been thrown out of court as Junk Science. And the courts have characterized those that advocate these positions as lying for money. AoA simple won’t tell the truth about these court rulings.

All you have to do is to read the rulings to see the truth.

W&N

August 23, 2011 at 8:20 am
(38) whiteandnerdy says:

(5) Poling et al. Since the Polings go around giving news conferences etc you can’t possibly believe in the invented gag order. If you were to actually read the Poling decisions, and the journal where Dr. Poling published, you would see that the case was not about autism, that the courts have repeatedly pointed out that Poling was not compensated for autism, and that Dr. Poling and Mr. Kirby have acted in profoundly unethical/dishonest/illegal manners.

The anti-vaccs have grossly lied about the case. They do this because they know that people like you just won’t read the documents for yourself.

(6) Hep B. Yeah, you sent us to a public interest site and highlighted a generalization about how Hep B isn’t transmitted.

You didn’t post how it is transmitted, nor did you post the actual data of interest–how many US kids were infected with Hep B each year.

Here is a decade old study looking at US born kids (from Pediatrics):
Childhood hepatitis B virus infections in the United States before hepatitis B immunization. Pediatrics. 2001 Nov;108(5):1123-8.

“These rates indicate that by the early 1990s, HBV was infecting 16 000 children who were younger than 10 years (8700 non-Asian children and 7300 Asian-American children) annually.” Again this doesn’t include perinatal infections.

The anti-vaccs are marginalized to posting on the Net because they are simply untruthful. In this example they are willing to lie and risk the health/lives of 16,000 kids per year.

You have to make a willful effort to avoid the facts in order to believe them.

W&N

August 23, 2011 at 10:09 am
(39) Taximom5 says:

February 22, 2011:
“The U.S. Supreme Court has upheld liability protections for vaccine makers, ruling that they can’t be sued in state court for design-defect damages.

In its Feb. 22 opinion, the high court ruled 6-2 in favor of vaccine manufacturer Wyeth, now owned by Pfizer. The ruling said the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act bars design-defect claims against the manufacture.”

I clearly posted hepb.org’s quote that Hep B is transmitted by blood or bodily fluids. Whiteandnerdy either needs to learn to read or to stop lying (or both).

If according to the CDC, only 4519 TOTAL cases of hep B were reported in 2007, it is totally inaccurate to say that 16,000 cases of pediatric cases occur per year. Again, Whiteandnerdy needs to stop with the lies.

The decade-old “study” you posted is from the National Immunization Program (conflict of interest). Perhaps you’d like to explain the conclusion: that ESTIMATED annual rates in non-Asian children (24 per 100,000) translate into an ESTIMATED 8700 non-Asian children infected by the 1990s, while ESTIMATED annual rates of Southeast Asian children (2580 per 100,000) translate into 7300 Asian chidren infected by the 1990s.

Why would a tiny estimated rate of infection in non-Asian children turn into a higher rate than the Southeast Asian children, when the initial rate of infection amongst Southeast Asian children was 100 times greater?

Notice how whiteandnerdy doesn’t mention that these are ESTIMATES. No, whiteandnerdy tries to make it appear as though there are actual reports of 16,000 children infected with hepB!

August 23, 2011 at 10:09 am
(40) Taximom5 says:

Whiteandnerdy also tries to make it appear that Hannah Poling was not compensated for vaccine-induced autism. The exact wording of the court was that the vaccines she received “resulted” in autism. She was compensated for a vaccine injury that resulted in autism. The assumption is that the mitochondrial disorder she has made her more susceptible to vaccine-induced autism; in fact, there are studies on PubMed showing that mitochondrial damage can be caused by medication (including Tylenol, which is routinely administered WITH vaccines). See http://psychrights.org/research/Digest/NLPs/DrugsCauseMitochondrialDamage.pdf

August 23, 2011 at 6:40 pm
(41) whiteandnerdy says:

Taximom you are on quite the roll here.

(1) If you want to know what the Supreme Court ruled, you should try reading the decision.
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/09-152.pdf

Bottom of page 6 the court exactly points out that all US families can sue vaccine manufacturers.

All you offered was a partial quote that doesn’t support your claims. And you don’t seem to understand what “design-defect” means.

Comment: I think you didn’t post the court ruling because you don’t want to fact check the anti-vacc claims.

August 23, 2011 at 6:41 pm
(42) whiteandnerdy says:

(2a) Hep B–the number of cases you provided is from 2007, the numbers I provided were from before use of the vaccine. Pointing out that there are far few cases after use of the vaccine doesn’t support your POV.

(2b) Hep B–you gave us the reported number of cases. With even the most trivial effort on your part you can quickly see that the reported number is wrong–it is too low. You could start by googling the symptoms of Hep B. Your argument isn’t just wrong, it is absurd and demonstrates a complete failure to understand the subject.

(2c) Hep B–infectivity
(i) You gave us a generalization intended for the public
(ii) Your own link clearly states that all people regardless as to age are at risk for Hep B
(iii) If you were to ask a virologist about Hep B, they would point out that it is a tough virus. A sneeze or cough can put virus into an environment (house, daycare, store, park) and the virus can be infective a week later. This explains how low-risk kids kept getting infected.

(2d) Hep B–since the reported number of cases of Hep B is wrong (i.e. is a gross understatement of the actual number of cases), one has to go out and test people. If you would actually read the data, you would find about 40 years of testing the US population and surprise, surprise, when you test US kids not at high risk of Hep B you keep finding infections.

The 16,000 US kids infected each year is an estimate because, DUH one can’t test every single person in the country. All you are demonstrating is that you are completely and totally intellectual lost.

Comment: I think the you are reduced to name-calling as a defense mechanism. It is a substitute for fact-checking and a way to avoid learning that the anti-vacs have played you for a fool.

August 23, 2011 at 6:42 pm
(43) whiteandnerdy says:

(3) Poling case–naturally you didn’t post the actual court documents. The ruling is 100% clear: encephalopathy and complex partial seizure disorder.

The claim that the court ruled that vaccination resulted in her autism is just the latest flat-out anti-vacc lie. Fortunately it is an incredibly stupid lie. Anyone with basic integrity will read the court ruling and see the facts.

Bottom line: every step of this long thread you have systematically gone out of your way to not fact-check.

Good news: anyone that has made it through middle-school and figure out that the anti-vaccs simply aren’t truthful.

W&N

August 23, 2011 at 10:52 pm
(44) ent says:

While this argument is heated it is nothing compared to the death threats the autism guide receives constantly or the personal attacks that I have been subjected to. I have been called a “liar” told I’m in league with pharmaceutical companies, I’m stupid & much, worse. The fact that so many who take the “anti-vacc” position will go as far as to threaten the life of someone who disagrees with them points to a degree of fanaticism that is absolutely absurd.

No amount of endless research showing autism is not connected to vaccines will ever be good enough. This is proven by the fact that the fraud who started all of this, Andrew Wakefield, was stripped of his medical license, his research publicly declared unethical, & poorly executed and yet anti-vacc groups everywhere hail him as a hero & a great protector of children. For some reason these individuals are unwilling to look at any other cause for autism.

It makes me angry that b/c so many people are quite literally obsessed w/ the idea that vaccines cause autism we have wasted our time and money with study after study, looking into vaccines instead of using that time & money to find a cause that might actually pan out.
(more below)

August 23, 2011 at 10:55 pm
(45) ent says:

People do make money campaigning against vaccines, just look at Jennifer McCarthy. Like most websites AoA and Generation Rescue make money every time you click on their website. The more you click on their site the more advertisers are willing to pay them to keep running it.

On the flip side, I have paid more money out of my own pocket for my own daughter’s autism therapy than I’ve ever made writing about vaccines. It would be in my financial best interest if the government or pharma were found to be responsible, but that is not the case.

Do I believe that vaccine reactions exist and can be severe enough to cause similar symptoms to autism? Yes, but many of the reactions that people believe are caused by vaccines are actually not. Severe reactions are rare, and while no child should get autism, many more have died from infectious disease.

I believe there is no universal cause for autism. A few genes are likely to be the only similar thing from case to case. I pick my daughter up from autism school and watch the behaviors of the children. It’s impossible for me not to question whether or not they all even have the same illness. My daughter isn’t allergic to anything, others are allergic to everything. Some kids were fine until they suddenly started to regress, others like mine, had autism seemingly from birth. Some are prone to violence, some aren’t, some live in constant fear, some lack fear to the point that it is dangerous. The differences go on, and on.

(continued)

August 23, 2011 at 10:59 pm
(46) ent says:

Package inserts & the PDR are practically designated places for pharma companies to release themselves from liability. Much of the language used in package inserts is written by lawyers because even though there may only be 1% chance that the vaccine is actually harmful there’s a 99% chance that that 1% will sue the company for millions.

Taximom – it is true that hepatitis B is a blood borne illness, less likely to affect children than adults. However, how many children are molested, or born to drug users or just parents who happen to have it? There is a higher risk of Hep B among sanitation workers indicating that there is a risk your child could get it from playing in someone else’s trash can (ie. used feminine products etc. . . ). I don’t know how many children in the U.S. get hep B a year but I do know that any number listed by any organization credible or not is only an estimate. We will never have an exact number of cases on hep B, the flu, the chicken pox or any other disease, it’s impossible, so assume always that any numbers you read are estimates.

When I see something in this discussion that I deem inappropriate I will remove it. I have an editor who visits the site also and will let me know if she sees anything that needs to be removed.

Unless you can prove to me that a specific vaccine given at a specific time, that can be proven contained thimerosal, was the direct result of your child’s autism I prefer to stick to the facts: credible research has tried again and again and failed to find a link between vaccines and autism.

If you don’t want a vaccine for you or your child sign a waiver. If you want to speak out against vaccines get your own website, or write a book, or whatever, but these “anti-vacc” people who sit here and troll the web looking for articles like mine so they can find out who wrote it and threaten to kill them and their family, well, you really have to question their motive and their sanity.

August 24, 2011 at 7:37 am
(47) whiteandnerdy says:

ENT

My 2 cents.

It is a truism that it is pointless to expect reason or an open mind from a fanatic.

Despite this I do think there is value in pointing out their errors.

E.g. there are many times I have been with other parents that are members of the autism community and they will say something like:

“Isn’t it terrible that you can’s sue vaccine manufacturers.” Or ” Did you know that in the Poling case the court ruled that her vaccines resulted in her autism?”

I ask, why do you believe this? And they say something like they were reading a blog called AoA.

So out comes the laptop and we pull up the Poling and the Supreme Court rulings and see the facts.

I suppose this is why sites like AoA ruthlessly censor posters. I also think this is why Ms Dachel, Ms Meleck, Mr. Kasemodel, and minorityview all post and run–they won’t stay anywhere their arguments can be openly challenged.

Then I pull out threads that I have booked marked and look at that…you can often see that the vaccine critics continue to make claims that they know aren’t true.

Most parent’s find this very helpful.

But then most parents, even if they are scared about vaccines, have their child’s health as their highest priority and thus are at least willing to look at the facts.

Anyway, if you keep posting anything about vaccines/autism you will get the same peanut-gallery posting the same old recycled nonsense endlessly.

W&N

August 24, 2011 at 4:43 pm
(48) ent says:

I agree and I won’t be bullied into silence. Recent studies show that education is the key to improving vaccination rates so I’ll continue to write and I’m sure I’ll continue to have my credibility threatened, called names, and generally harassed. Most people are reasonable in their views even if they are against vaccines but a few online literally (ie. Dachel) troll the web waiting for the opportunity to defame anyone who supports vaccines. Like a drive by shooting, they’ve scarce read the entire article before they’re putting words into your mouth and making personal accusations – and then they’re off to harass someone else. This is something I’ve never understood. I’ve see parents who believe vaccines caused their child’s autism, so full of anger and hatred, that they threaten the lives of other people’s children with autism. How does that make them any better than the vaccine companies they purport injured them? In real life I have friends who do not vaccinate their children, friends who even believe vaccines caused their child’s autism, we don’t agree but we respect each other. On the web, however, (and I do believe that money is involved), it is all out warfare.

August 24, 2011 at 9:06 pm
(49) whiteandnerdy says:

ENT,

Two points.

First while I agree that since it is our children’s health that is being risked, it is worth the effort and the risks. Just please be clear on the risks that you are taking.

There are a number of examples, I would suggest you read Kathleen Seidel’s story. The gist of which is that she had the audacity to post the court rulings–the ones that AoA claims can’t exist–on her site. The US civil courts that ruled all the vaccines cause autism arguments are junk science.

Her thanks was to end up in court–a clear attempt at intimidating her into silence.
Fortunately the anti-vaccs were so flagrantly unethical the court quashed her subpoena and censored the anti-vacc lawyer for his gross ethical misconduct.

Bet you won’t find this on any of the “pro-safe vaccine” sites–rather speaks to their integrity.

Secondly, I think the psychology of people like Taximom is nothing more than a raging case of cognitive dissonance.

It is bad enough to see that one has been played for a fool, but when one realizes that one has jeopardized one’s own child’s heath….it is just to painful for some to admit.

W&N

August 25, 2011 at 12:33 am
(50) ent says:

Taximom has done nothing on this site to show that she is anything but a mom who feels very strongly that vaccines harmed her children. I believe that the information she has been given is not entirely factual but that does not say anything about her as a person, her character, or cognitive abilities.

Who I am talking about are individuals, who sue (like the example you pointed out), threaten and basically try to bully vaccine supporters into silence. If I implied that individuals who are non threatening and appropriate are not welcome to comment on my site I apologize.

I totally get the guilt that a parent of an autistic child feels. We’ve all wondered if its something that we did or could have stopped. It is a disease that destroys families, it’s devastating. I believe that people who become fanatical about vaccines to the point that they will issue death threats are seriously grieving. They probably find a kind of support system with other people who have anti-vaccination views, but at some point some of these people stop being rational, indicating that they really need help coming to terms with their child’s illness. IMO

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